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Debate What is your stance on gay marriage?
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I support gay marriages.
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I do not support gay marriages.
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LOL! I have no argument for that. Like I said, I support gay marriage whole-heartedly. Plus, it's your pick.
This is turning out to be some debate spot, if everyone agrees with each other... LOL!
its against my religon, yes, but so is being Hindu and gluntonus...
do i hate Hindus and fat people?
do i think they should stop being Hindu or eatting too much?
well...for health reasons maybe...
but otherwise, no.
judge not lest ye be judged, right?
(Careful... this question is a trap)
...
Oh wow. I actually have no argument. I've never had to argue AGAINST gay marriage. There's always been someone around to do that for me. I can play devil's advocate for almost every other issue... except this one.
I believe that if it goes against a church's religion, they have the right to refuse to perform the ceremony. There are churches (Christian ones) who would agree to perform gay marriages (I know this because my friend's pastor said he'd perform the ceremony). All a gay couple would have to do is find an accepting church.
Um. That's as much of a "devil's advocate" argument I can give. Sorry. But I agree with Obama in that I think if you want to outlaw something that you personally feel goes against your own religion, you have to find something commonly bad about it that crosses all religions-- including secularism. And gay marriage does not do that. So while you, personally may be against gay marriage (and Robbie740, I'm talking to you), does that necessarily mean it should be outlawed across the country, based on your personal beliefs that not everyone shares?
Why are you straight (if you are)? Because you are that way. People are who they are. You can't do anything is people are gay or lesbian. So what if a man likes a man? So what is a woman likes a woman? Lots of people say they need mental help but you can't do anything about it.
You will notice that most of the time gay people are actually pretty nice :D
"If we allow two men to marry or two women to marry, where should the line be drawn? Will we allow humans to marry animals?"
Of course the obvious answer to this question is NO because animals are not sentient beings, and do not have the same rights as human beings have. For example, what good would the right to free speech be for an animal, who doesn't speak? (This is not to say that animal rights don't exist, only that they are different from human rights).
A follow-up question generally occurs after this one. "Well, what about incest? If cousins, or a brother and sister really 'love' each other-- and who's to say they CAN'T, would we let THEM marry?"
Again, the answer is no, and for more scientific reasons than moral ones. I personally am slightly disturbed by incest, but that's not the point. To tackle this argument in an unbiased manner, like I said, we look to science. Brothers and sisters, or cousins, are too closely genetically related and if they were to produce offspring, they would have genetic defects and mutations that would harm the child. Inevitably, consensual incest harms a third party: the potential child.
The difference between gay couples and incestuous couples is a vast one, in reality, because the gay partners are NOT related. The difference between gay couples and straight couples is minor: gender.
And that answers that question, before an anti-gay marriage person brings it up. Call it a preemptive strike. LOL!
God made me gay if he didn't want me to be why did he make me gay?
Some quotes that actually make sense and can only be interpreted one way unlike the bible.
No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody. ~Rita Mae Brown
What are you trying to protect heterosexual marriages from? There isn't a limited amount of love. It isn't a non-renewable resource. If Amy and Barbara or Mike and Steve love each other, it doesn't mean that John and Mary can't. ~Ed Fallon
"Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality."-- James A. Baldwin
Personally, if it's against your religion, I cannot argue with that because it's your religion, and I don't think anyone should go around telling someone else that their religion is wrong and what they should think. Similarly, I don't like hearing people telling ME what to think and believe either. Therefore, MajorDork74, I hold with the argument of-- just because it is against your personal religion doesn't mean you can pass a law based on that alone.
Religious arguments aside, give me economic, political, or social reasons why gay marriage should not be allowed and I'll argue with that. Considering I don't like arguing against people's faiths (and it would probably be useless anyway making both parties angry), I cannot touch your religious arguments, though I may disagree with them.
Be warned if they come from Leviticus, though, I will be tearing you a new one. heh.
If you don't support gay marriage then don't get one and leave everyone the hell alone!
But not all gays (nor Americans for that matter), are Christian. And neither are all married couples. The Bible also states that marriage should be for the sake of procreation, and yet infertile men and women marry all the time, or couples who don't want kids.
The Bible says a lot of things. The old testament advocates for a lot of things that our country has outlawed.
I understand, Kateliness, that that's what you believe. But this is what WE believe. If a gay couple wants to be married in a religious sense, by a religion according to them, I think they should be allowed to.
In a way, my brother would agree with you, but NOT because he is religious. He advocates for civil unions because he doesn't think that most of America is ready for the term "marriage" yet. He says civil unions is a win-win situation, but I told him it's still compromising for the sake of compromising.
I have yet to hear a valid non-religious argument against gay marriage.
Gay marriage would fit this description. I say that if you leave the spiritual part out, it is fine with me. But leaving the spiritual part out would just be the same thing as a Civil Union.
I think it is still up to the Church; like itsjennyson said, the Church and law are separate, which is why I believe that the law doesn't have the right to make a Church marry people that they don't want to.
All I support is the Church's right to deny them Holy Matrimony. I don't think that it is the government's place to tell the Church whom they have to marry.
"I hate it when straight people claim homosexuality is a choice. It implies that they made that 'choice' themselves at some point in their life, which means they're probably just closeted gays anyway."
-- A friend.
If you're gay, you know it's not a choice. Unless you've been brainwashed by your church which is trying to "cure" you.
Kateliness: I'm bisexual. And I'm on the internet. That ALMOST counts. LOL. ;o)
Listen, I agree with you that a church should have the right to refuse to marry a gay couple, but they should also have the right to allow the marriage if they should so choose. Marriage is not strictly a Christian ceremony. It is generally religious, but not just Christian, and not all religions (believe it or not) believe that homosexuality is wrong.
So would you deny them THEIR religious rights to marry whoever they see fit?
is is when I say that I'll try to not judge them, even though I've never met one? (I actually forgot that I once bet a bi couple in Chicago, lovely girls).
or is it when I said that I support the idea for a religion to choose whether or not they want to marry gay couples?
or was it when I said that homosexual marriage didn't necessarily follow my belief guidelines(which happen to be the Bible), but that it wasn't up to me to judge them?
I just feel that no one, not even the church has the right to deter us from equality. In the end gays are just fighting for equal rights. Why do people let religion play such a big part of the decisions they make?
You say that a church (generic word for house of worship) should be allowed to marry a couple if they agree to do so. And that a couple should have all the legal rights. BUT if a church (Christian church, Muslim Mosque, Jewish Synagoge, Taoist Pagoda, whatever) does NOT wish to marry a gay couple they should not be forced into it. Am I right?
I'm saying the exact same thing! So I have no quarrel with you except I don't understand why you still say no. LOL.
You seem to be doing one of my favorite Christian practices: hate the sin, not the sinner. Which too many Christians do not do.
(Though I personally don't understand what makes it a sin, but that's just me, if you see it as that I've long stopped trying to disuade folks from that belief, however if you could explain it to me that would be swell.)
Er... dodgeball. OK. I get what you're saying now. But I still disagree. The reason being that homosexuality has existed long before most of the religions that call it sinful.
Actually, that gives me an idea of why they say it's wrong...
It's a Pagan practice (Greeks, Romans) and the Christians hated everything Pagan. If you can give me a reason that's different from that for why the Bible (and subsequently you) believes it's wrong, then I will wire you 100 dollars.
Anyways I digress. Oh, yes, homosexuality has been around for... um... ever... before pornography, or at least modern pornography. However that doesn't say anything about it as you see it as a temptation.
One of my very best friends is gay, and I have watched him struggle with it from the moment I met him in ninth grade. He tried so hard to be straight, he really, really did, but he could not be happy in any female relationship he had because he felt absolutely no attraction to them, and it made him awkward and ashamed, and he was so humiliated because all he wanted to do was grow up get married and have kids. I've spent many nights with him crying because he didn't want to be gay. I watched him develop other emotional problems that I won't go into here because of it. But by junior year, he was completely out (the whole school knew), and all his other emotional problems dissolved because he was happy with who he was, and he had finally come to terms with it.
This more than anything else has convinced me that being gay is not a fetish or a quirk or some aberration, it is who you are and unless you have gone through it, or seen someone go through it, many straight people I meet just cannot understand that.
As a bisexual, I had it easier. I could deny my attraction to women ever since I recognized it from a young age because I was also attracted to men, and thus had plenty of healthy relationships with men. But I couldn't deny that I also liked women. I have also dated a girl before and she is such a wonderful and beautiful person. And I felt a deep connection with her. We aren't together anymore (due mostly to the fact that she lives in Rome) but I still care about her and respect her and wish her the best. In the future, I do not know who I will fall in love with, but I'm glad that I'm open enough to know that I will fall in love with a PERSON and not a gender.
As iSupport states, I'm bisexual-- not confused.
Anyways, to everyone, my offer still stands of 100 dollars* for the person who can explain to me what is sinful about homosexuality.
Plenty of sins, the reasons for them being sins are apparent. They tend to be doing harm to others or yourself. IE, murder is bad for universally obvious reasons, and gambling is bad because it hurts yourself. Abortion is a sin because it is, in essence and in some people's eyes, infanticide. But I cannot find a reason for why homosexuality is so... bad.
Now, believe me when I tell you that I do not make this offer lightly. It started as a ten (Egyptian) pound bet between me and a Muslim friend of mine. Ten pounds is, by the way, a little under two US dollars. Not very much money. Over the years as not only she, but other contenders grasped at straws for an argument I couldn't refute, the stakes have increased. Ten pounds turned into ten dollars. Ten dollars into twenty. And as my income increased, twenty turned into fifty, and so on.
So let me tell you that I've heard plenty of different reasons, none of which I haven't yet been able to refute. I'll just list them here so I don't hear them again.
Argument 1: It's unnatural.
Refutation: A) Because driving in cars and using computers and modern medicine is completely natural. (Sarcasm)
B) Homosexuality exists in animals.
C) Homosexuality is not a recent development of modern times.
Argument 2: Sex is for procreation, and homosexuals cannot reproduce, and therefore any sex they have is out of lust, which is a sin.
Refutation: This one is cute. Mostly because it implies that every time a heterosexual has sex they are doing it for the sake of procreation and not for the sake of love or, I'll admit, lust. Since sex is so demonized by all kinds of religions, people tend to forget how beautiful it can be as an expression of intimacy, of becoming closer with the person you love, of getting as close to one soul as you probably can physically get. Why is it heterosexuals who do not want to procreate, or indeed heterosexuals who can NOT procreate (infertile men/women) still have sex? Wow, that is a tough question... Could it be that they... maybe... love each other?
Argument 3: Homosexuality is a sin like alcoholism or gambling is a sin because it's an addictive temptation that can consume your life.
Refutation: This is the most amusing argument I've ever gotten on the subject! And from a self-professed alcoholic, no less. Homosexuality is not a fetish or a quirk, as stated earlier, because you don't fall in love with whips and handcuffs. People forget that homosexuality isn't purely a sexual attraction, anymore than being heterosexual is a purely sexual attraction. I don't know what men want from girls, but I know girls, in addition to being sexually attracted to a guy, want more than that. They want friendship, care, intimacy. It's no different in homosexuality. They want the same things in their relationships as a heterosexual would want. And therefore I REALLY do not understand how homosexuality is an addictive substance like alcohol that "consumes you."
These are the best (or funniest) arguments I've gotten. Care to add to the list? I'm opening the floor.
*Please note that at the given exchange rate from dollars to Internet Cookie Points and Fanpop props will apply if someone happens to "win" the 100 dollars from me. IE, I'm broke right now, but I will admit it if you give me a good argument, and you'll get muchos cookie points and props from me, however I may still disagree with you.
Cinders I would love to get into this discussion with you but I can't mainly because I don't believe that said explanation exists, because when I get into this argument with people the only explanation they ever give for being against Gay marriage is either A. against my religion, or B. it's just wrong. Although no one can ever say why it's wrong. So in my opinion the only 2 arguments against Gay marriage that actually exist are Religion or Homophobia.
2. maybe they adopt kids or one of them have already one from a previous marriage don't you think a kid would would be effected by the environment he lives in dont you think the percentage of he being gay when he grow up more than other kids !?
and kathria82 my religion does and im glad that he does in my community no one agree to that (gays) and if some one want to be gay then why would he still in his religion he can change it and even that our religion doesn't allow that but there is some gay in our community but before 10 years or even 7 there wan no one.
2.Being raised by a Gay parent doesn't mean your more likely to be Gay when you reach adulthood. I knew a boy who went to my school his mother was gay and neither he nor his siblings were gay.
Second, when gays adopt kids they are doing something for the community and child. It is an honor that so many want to adopt and help out so many orphaned kids.
A PARENT is a father or mother; one who sires or gives birth to and/or nurtures and raises an offspring. The different role of parents varies throughout the tree of life, and is especially complex in human culture.
This definition doesn't say that a parent has to be a MOTHER AND FATHER it can be either or both. If someone has love to give to another and to a child why prevent it? Don't judge.
Secondly, I think that your logic is based on lack of understanding of what being gay actually is. And actually, that's OK, because a lot of people have different ideas about what it is. However, I don't believe theories of anyone who hasn't experienced it, or seen someone experience it, because they have no basis upon which to make their argument. So let me just tell you, from experience, what being gay is like.
As stated earlier in this conversation, I am a bisexual, and two of my best male friends are gay. One had a better time of it than the other, and I've already told one of their stories, now let me tell you the other.
I dated this best friend, and let me tell you, the chemistry (at least on his end) was nonexistent. He tensed up when I tried to get closer, and after about a week he really didn't seem to enjoy it as much. The only thing he could do comfortably with me physically was cuddle and watch a movie. He had no problem with that. But otherwise, (and he told me this after we broke up), he said it felt strange to him, because while he liked me a whole lot, he didn't feel attracted to me at all. And I'm not the only girl he dated, either.
I'm sure you've had crushes on boys. So have I, and so had he. But he had never had crushes on any girls.
This is an important detail to consider when wondering whether or not homosexuality is a choice. I'm sure you cannot choose the men you're attracted to, anymore than he could. Nobody who is gay WANTS to be at first. Why would you choose something that is socially unacceptable? If you've never been attracted to women, and you're a man, how does that make it a choice?
The reason I'm saying this is to support the idea that has already been stated which is that homosexuality is who you are, not what you do.
Funny thing about gay adoption, I'm all for it. My friend's godparents are two gay men, and she loves them to bits, and she herself is probably the straightest girl I know. If her parents can put their trust in a gay couple, because they think that couple would do the best job of raising their daughter should something (God forbid) happen to them, I think that says something. I'd much rather a child have two gay parents than let the child never get adopted.
Additionally, the argument is that a child needs a male and female role model to look up to, but the objection to that argument is that single parents seem to get along just fine. In addition to that, you can't argue that gay children have straight parents. There is no proof to what you're claiming that being raised in a gay household can make you gay.
And even if there WAS: SO WHAT?
Or at least, that's my opinion, I know what the big deal is, people still think it's morally reprehensible, yada yada yada, and yet... no one will tell me why. No one's taken up my challenge. I feel sad. All these cookie points and no one to give them to. :o(
This is COMPLETELY off topic, but-- You live in Kuwait, yes? I've been to Kuwait City, very interesting place, the Johnny Rocket's there had their sign written in Arabic and I got such a kick out of it I had to snap a photograph.
I love you guys but I just typed a really long response and my internet died. So hold on.
dodgeball_beast: Nonsense! I love hearing from you! You are always very articulate and mild-mannered and always have something interesting to say. And you're the only one to take up my challenge.
Firstly, I respect that you don't believe in sex before marriage and I understand that, you don't have to explain that to me, but if you want to for the sheer purpose of explaining yourself to everyone else, be my guest.
So let me address your argument. What of people who-- not can't have-- but don't WANT children? What is sex for them then? Should they not be allowed to get married?
My main issue with your argument is that you say sex has two purposes: to procreate, and to express love. My issue with this is that you seem to put the first reason above the second. And while yes, procreation is technically the biological priority, it isn't necessarily MY priority. I think we just have different priorities. That wasn't a jibe I just dunno how else to say it. I'd rather be married and having sex but no kids with a person I love then married to a person I hate just for the sake of having children. Maybe that's just me.
(Random note: I do want kids though. Eventually).
You do get props though for coming up with an original response to the "and what do barren people do" question. Kudos. And I will give you actual fanpop props, just let me answer sakoon first.
OK, now sakoon. I really... really... really don't understand how gays can hurt anyone even in a "different kind" of way like you say. Sure they may be different from the community and stand out, but so does a white girl in a black neighborhood, a Jew in a Muslim city, a boy in a sorority house, a republican at a democratic forum. I wonder who feels more awkward in these situations?
OK I understand the shock of finding out that someone you trusted with a lot of things is gay. And I understand that there are vast differences in your culture (believe me, I've been there) and that's cool. But try and understand how the gay people may feel. Maybe you are one of those people that thinks of it as a choice, that's another argument, but still. Imagine the shock of an employee whose darkest secret has been revealed, and her shame and embarrassment. Think of what it's like to have to hide a part of who you are from everyone. It's not easy for them either. I'm sure she never meant you or your family harm, and I'm sure that when she was in such situations with your aunt, she was very modest and discrete. People have humility.
Egypt claims that there are absolutely no gays or AIDS in their country. Well I know plenty of gay Egyptians, and one straight Egyptian with AIDS. My point in saying this is that denying it and suppressing it won't make it go away, it will just make the suppressed population feel worse about things they can't change.
I cannot really argue with you because you're right, your culture is different, and thus there is a different context. So that's a hard thing to overcome. I don't think Kuwait is ready for gay marriage, or if they ever will be/should be. And while I strongly believe they should be treated with respect, and sought to be understood, it's really hard for me to argue against that social context so...
I guess my point is that we live in different worlds. And the most I can do is help you to try and understand my world, and my beliefs, as you help me to understand yours. :o)
p.s. It's gotta be difficult to have a lifestyle that many people oppose though too. Definitely.
You do realise that gay people are born gay-its got something to do with brain chemicals-don't know what exactly.
Why would you be against it, if your not gay then it doesn't effect you at all except maybe gay family members or friends would be given the same rights as you- and why shouldn't they?
Where I live, it is legal to marry your cousin, aunt or uncle, nephew or niece because there is not enough similarity in the DNA to make your children mentally disadvantaged. But no one does!
Why don't we just let people do as they please? They're not hurting anyone!
whenever someone declares that homosexuality is a choice, it makes me want to scream. (the quote you gave was excellent Cinders, and almost spot on what i usually say) i certainly didn't wake up one morning and decide to be straight, so how can it logically follow that anyone chooses to be gay? and considering the world we live in, where ignorant people treat homosexuals like lesser beings, why would these people *choose* this so-called "lifestyle"? the world needs to wake up and realize that you can't choose who you love. so stop hatin'!
are you therefore unnatural?
what is nature, what is opinion and like?
these are questions that are above us all, so let people live what ever existence they can carve into this world
Updates: A few people have come out at my small town in the Midwest school. Two guys, one girl. Very lovely people :)
I understand the vision of people who say: 'It's against my religion', or 'I think it's wrong'.
However, do those people have the right to decide which people may get married?
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